AILSA CHANG, HOST:
Pope Leo XIV has become increasingly outspoken against the Trump administration and against the U.S.-Israel war with Iran, and President Trump has taken note of that. In a lengthy post on Truth Social, he called out the American pope saying, quote, "Leo should get his act together as pope, use common sense, stop catering to the radical left and focus on being a great pope, not a politician." Well, Pope Leo later responded with this.
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POPE LEO XIV: I have no fear of the Trump administration nor of speaking out loudly about the message of the gospel.
CHANG: Then earlier today, when asked if he would apologize to Pope Leo, President Trump said this.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: There's nothing to apologize for. He's wrong.
CHANG: OK, so how are conservative Catholics viewing this spat between the president and the pope? Well, to help us answer that question, we called Michael Knowles. He's a conservative podcaster and a practicing Catholic. Welcome.
MICHAEL KNOWLES: It's wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me.
CHANG: Wonderful to have you. OK, just to underline this, you are a Trump supporter, and you're Catholic. So what's been your personal reaction to this whole fight between President Trump and Pope Leo?
KNOWLES: I feel that the fight is unfortunate, though it's not without historical precedent. Popes and emperors have been in tension with each other, going back to the fifth century at least.
CHANG: Fair.
KNOWLES: I'm reminded of Pope Gelasius and Emperor Anastasius, and actually, in that bit, it's not just historical trivia. That dispute actually established a principle that Catholics have understood for a long time called duo sunt, the idea that there are two powers in the world. There's the spiritual authority, and there's the temporal authority. Sometimes they overlap, but they're also different lanes. And then I was reminded more recently of a spat between Pope John Paul II and George W. Bush at the outbreak of the Iraq War.
CHANG: Yeah.
KNOWLES: And this is why I suppose my only advice to the president, unsolicited as it is, is that, you know, it's perfectly normal for presidents and popes to be in tension or even to disagree sometimes. It would be better if the tone were a little more reverent. I think that would help.
CHANG: OK, let me ask you about the tone. Do you think the president owes the pope an apology here? Like, do you think Trump has been disrespectful?
KNOWLES: I think that the tone certainly could be more respectful. That's the case. I don't think that the...
CHANG: Apology? Apology needed? What do you think?
KNOWLES: I would be delighted if the president apologized...
CHANG: (Laughter).
KNOWLES: ...To the pope, but I don't exactly expect it. I do think that the president, you know, can have his views of foreign policy. And, you know, the president, I believe is a Presbyterian, so I don't expect them to line up with the pope's entirely. But it's worth remembering that 1 in 5 voters in America is a Catholic. It's the single largest denomination of Christianity in the United States. And so I would not expect there to be perfect alignment, and the pope is speaking...
CHANG: Yeah. Well, thank you for reminding us and walking us down memory lane about tension between leaders and popes. I mean, President Trump posted on Truth Social quote, "I don't want a pope who criticizes the president of the United States because I'm doing exactly what I was elected in a landslide" - all caps, his all caps - "to do." Do you think the pope, as a leader, as a human being, has a right to criticize the president?
KNOWLES: Oh, of course, and popes have criticized presidents for a long time. So, you know, I think President Trump's frustration probably comes from the fact that he has done an enormous amount to protect Christians. He's bailed pro-life Catholics who were unjustly imprisoned out of the slammer. He has nominated the justices who overruled Roe v. Wade. He's done quite a lot to expand religious liberty. And so I understand his personal frustration. He feels, justifiably, that he's been excellent in protecting Christians.
CHANG: Well, OK, but what about the image that President Trump shared of himself that appeared to be likening himself to Jesus? He has since deleted the image, but this isn't the first time he's done something like this. Like, last year after the death of Pope Francis, he shared an AI image of himself as the pope. Do you think these kinds of posts are appropriate?
KNOWLES: Well, obviously, the president didn't think that that photo of himself, which was widely interpreted as him putting his own face on Christ's - obviously, the president ultimately didn't think that was appropriate. He deleted it.
CHANG: Right. Trump claimed that he thought he - it depicted him as a doctor.
KNOWLES: Yes, he...
CHANG: I think that was how he summarized (ph) it.
KNOWLES: When I first saw that picture, I assumed - and I still do wonder if Trump actually did post that himself. My read was that probably, given the complexity even of the image, I don't think he was making that on Grok or ChatGPT. I do wonder if the president is in a way protecting his own staff and saying the buck stops with the president. I'll take responsibility. But I was really gratified to see him delete the post.
CHANG: Right.
KNOWLES: I think that was the right thing to do. I really appreciated it. I felt it was important for him to delete it. And he did. And so...
CHANG: OK.
KNOWLES: ...He'll go back to spatting with the pope, of course, but...
CHANG: And we'll see how it all resolves, if it ever resolves. Michael Knowles hosts the podcast, "The Michael Knowles Show." Thank you so much for joining us today.
KNOWLES: Well, thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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