STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
James Comey is accused of lying to the Senate, so we called a senator - Democrat Tim Kaine of Virginia. Senator, welcome back.
TIM KAINE: Great to be with you, Steve. Thanks.
INSKEEP: Do you think James Comey lied to you?
KAINE: No, I don't. And your reporter talked about how this two-page indictment is super thin on details. They're trying to indict Jim Comey for something he said five years ago about something he did four years before that. So Donald Trump is looking back nine years to go after an enemy instead of doing what he promised - bringing down inflation, ending wars, bringing down health care costs. He's focused on going after his perceived political enemies instead of serving the American public. This is a very, very serious misstep, and I think it's going to blow up in the Trump administration's face.
INSKEEP: You are correct that the indictment gives no evidence, which I find unusual. I read a number of indictments as a reporter. Some of them are very long, have dramatic narratives. This just has no evidence. It says that he lied. But - so we have to guess about this. But there is a public record here. Comey said before the Senate, I did not authorize a leak to the media. There is this other testimony from his former deputy Brian (ph) McCabe, who did testify to leaking information and said he disclosed it to Comey afterward, I believe. Does that raise questions in your mind about what Comey did say?
KAINE: Not really, Steve, because as Carrie, your reporter, said, you've got to show that there was an affirmative intent to mislead that was material and significant. Why is this material insignificant? Let's just start there, that information was disclosed to the media. I mean, disclosing information to the media is sort of like - I think there's a First Amendment. The media is important in this country. So why would that be so material and significant as to constitute a crime under any circumstance? This is chasing after - Donald Trump's chasing after his own tail on this. People aren't concerned about whether things were leaked to the media nine years ago. They're worried about prices going up and their health care going up and chaos in the economy. And so that's why this thing is so odd.
And the point you made about the indictment being so short, Pam Bondi put out a press statement that was highly unusual when this indictment was announced. And the last line in the press statement was, we will follow the facts in this case. You follow the facts before you indict somebody. You understand the facts before you indict them. You don't indict them on a two-page lack of details and then say you're going to follow the facts. This is a political hatchet job. I think the concerns about selective prosecution are significant. I think Lindsey Halligan, she's not a prosecutor. She's never had any experience in Virginia. I think even the circumstances of her appointment raise legal questions. So...
INSKEEP: Well, I'm glad you mentioned Pam Bondi and Lindsey Halligan. Lindsey Halligan being the lawyer who was put in the prosecutor's position in order to obtain this indictment. She issued a statement and said - she's saying she's on your side. The balance of power, she writes, is a bedrock principle of our democracy, she says in this statement. She said Congress needs a forthright presentation of facts and any effort to evade or obstruct that is illegal. Just in a couple of seconds, do you agree it's important for government officials to be truthful before Congress?
KAINE: Yes. And I also think it's important for an executive to respect Congress. For example, why not meet with congressional leaders to talk about the budget rather than refusing to meet with congressional leaders...
INSKEEP: Oh, we're going to get to that.
KAINE: ...In order to force a shutdown?
INSKEEP: We're going to get to that in a moment, but I want to stick on this matter of...
KAINE: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...Evading or obstructing the truth before Congress. Attorney General Bondi herself has testified before the Senate. She testified at a confirmation hearing earlier this year, and she said under oath that she would make independent and nonpolitical decisions. Let's listen to part of the exchange with Senator Amy Klobuchar here.
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AMY KLOBUCHAR: So you will provide an assurance to every member of this committee that the Justice Department will only follow the facts and the law, and the White House will play no role in cases investigated or brought?
PAM BONDI: Senator, it will be my job, if confirmed as attorney general, to make those decisions. Politics will not play a part.
INSKEEP: She said she will make the decisions and politics will make a part. She said that to the United States Senate. In light of recent events, Senator, was that a truthful statement?
KAINE: I feel misled by that, and I knew at the time she was not being sincere. I think everyone knew that. And the Donald Trump tweet at her - which he apparently meant for her only but put it out to his millions of followers last week - telling her she had to go after Comey and Letitia James and Adam Schiff, she's clearly responding. And they're responding by pushing out this career prosecutor that Donald Trump's DOJ appointed into the job to put in Lindsey Halligan to do the president's dirty work.
INSKEEP: One other perspective on this I want to bring in. Peter Navarro, a longtime adviser to President Trump, was on this program earlier this week. And he said it was important to investigate Comey along with top former intelligence officials and FBI agents, and he wanted it done before the 2026 election. Here's why.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
PETER NAVARRO: And that's the problem here because if the Democrats regain the House in...
INSKEEP: 2026.
NAVARRO: ...2026, can you guarantee me right now that they won't subpoena me and everybody else in the White House and do the same crap again?
INSKEEP: I make no predictions about the future.
NAVARRO: I'll make the prediction. Of course they will 'cause they think they can do whatever they want until they're held accountable.
INSKEEP: Senator, is Navarro right? If you regain the majority in Congress, you will be issuing subpoenas and investigating them.
KAINE: I have no plan to do that, but I'll say this - what Navarro just said shows this is a political prosecution. If he's talking about a prosecution of Comey and it has to be before the midterms, he's admitting that the whole thing is political to begin with. And that's why this case is, I think, in grave danger of being thrown out before it even gets rolling.
INSKEEP: And now let me ask, as I said that I would, about the looming government shutdown. You've demanded renewal of Obamacare subsidies. There's this deadline coming up. I get that. Republicans have said, let's just do a clean bill, a temporary extension. Keep the government open while we negotiate. And normally it is Democrats who say, let's do the clean bill. Don't make these crazy demands. Why change now?
KAINE: Well, I'll correct you. We haven't demanded renewal. We put forward an alternative. Donald Trump told the Republicans to do a budget and not deal with the Democrats, and that - that's what they did. We put forward an alternative that we put on the table on the 19 of September, and we've asked for a chance to meet with the president. That's the way we've done every budget deal in the 13 years I've been in the Senate. We sit down and meet, and we work out a deal. The president said he would meet with congressional leadership. Then he canceled the meeting. Apparently, he would rather shut down than negotiate. Negotiation is how this government works.
INSKEEP: Got about 10 seconds. Trump says he'll fire people if the government shuts down. Are you prepared to tell him, go ahead, do it?
KAINE: He's already doing it, and we're suing him in court to block the firings as much as we can, and that's what we'll keep doing.
INSKEEP: Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, it's always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.
KAINE: You bet, Steve. Thanks.
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